Arlene Chan

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Interview conducted by Lilian Leung with Arlene Chan on November 5, 2020 (via Zoom)

English

Lilian Leung: I’ll just start with sort of a few questions; What is your full name?

Arlene Chan: Ok, Arlene Chan, formerly Lumb, my family name is Lumb, and then it’s now Arlene Chan

LL: And do you have a Chinese name as well?

AC: yeah, it’s 林瑞玲, or well now it’s 陳林瑞玲.

LL: And can you tell us about your connection with first Chinatown?

AC: Yeah what is my connection with the First Chinatown, My family had a restaurant in our First Chinatown and called the Kwong Chow restaurant which was on the corner of Elizabeth and Dundas street. And also our family when we moved to the downtown area in 1959, our house was at Beverly and Dundas street, which at the time was on the outside of our first Chinatown, but now it’s sort of like right in between first Chinatown and West Chinatown. So because of my parents’ restaurant is, number one, that our family was very involved with the old First Chinatown, and also because both my parents were very active in the community. So as a result it was not only our working at the restaurant but also because we attended a lot of community events and so, first Chinatown was a big part of our lives.

LL: And what type of food did the Kwong Chow served at the time?

AC: Yeah, the Kwong Chow restaurant opened in 1959, and at the time all the Chinese restaurants in Toronto served Cantonese style food because most of the people Chinese people living in Toronto at the time were from the south part of China, from the province of Guangdong. So either Taishanese cooking or Cantonese-style cooking. So the Kwong Chow was famous for the Cantonese-style cooking.

LL: And who worked there at the time? Was it mostly just family run or people immediately in the neighbourhood?

AC: Yeah both my parents were major shareholders and then the rest of the shareholders most of them were family members and so, but who worked at the restaurant was my parents, of course, and then the six of us kids worked there. So it was kind of like a family restaurant, yeah.

LL: And how did your parents decide on a restaurant? Your mother like ran a grocery beforehand, and what was that big switch?

AC: Yeah well, my mother was born in British Columbia, she came to Toronto when she was 16 years old, and worked for her married sister and brother-in-law who had a fruit store and then eventually ran a restaurant in Northern Ontario and my mother came back to Toronto and borrowed $200 and opened a fruit store at Bathurst and St. Clair and then she was able to earn enough money to bring over her family from Vancouver because they were living at Vancouver at the time.

And they opened up some more fruit stores. So there were not too many choices as to what kind of businesses that Chinese could go into. So fruit stores wee one of them, restaurants, and laundries. Those are the three main businesses that the Chinese were involved with in those early years. When I say early years, I mean before the Second World War. So my parents, my mom was married to my dad, and my dad also had a fruit store and it was out in the west end. It’s called Eng’s Produce at Keele and Dundas Street in the Junction.

So when my mom married then they both ran Eng’s Produce until from 1939 together until 1959 at which time my parents decided to sell the grocery store and then invest in a Chinese restaurant downtown. So then they switched over to a Chinese restaurant business and again still in 1959, there was not a lot of options for the Chinese to go into business and so my parents took over an existing Chinese restaurant that was there before that didn’t do well and so then my parents took it over.

LL: And did your parents have a lot of experience cooking and running restaurants and stuff beforehand?

AC: My mom, both of them were not cooks. My father had worked when he came well, he came to Toronto when he was a very young boy and he worked in various restaurants before he invested in the fruit store. So he had some experience and actually, you know, he used to tell me that he was so good at what he was doing working at the front of the house that he got promoted so he became kind of like a supervisor at the front of the house for a restaurant.

So they both worked when they were both working at the restaurant and then my mother started getting more and more involved with community activities and there were six of us kids, they knew that both of them couldn’t put in the long hours at the restaurant. And then my mother being so involved in community affairs, my father had already stepped back from community affairs and then raising the six kids, so what was decided was my father would run the restaurant. He was the one that worked there pretty well six, seven days a week and long hours, and then my mother only worked there part-time so that freed her up to look after the six kids and also to be so involved in community work. So they always hired kitchen staff and they actually brought over a famous chef from Hong Kong to work in the kitchen as well, to run the kitchen, and they had a pastry chef who made dim sum so they always hired good people to work in the kitchens. Yeah.

LL: And what was that like for you? Like when did you decide- because you went into library studies, and how did you decide on that or did you know that you wanted to go into that sort of documenting Chinatown?

AC: Yeah, I had always, I’ve always been fascinated with my identity as a Chinese Canadian. Am I more Canadian? Am I more Chinese? Am I Chinese-Canadian my Canadian-Chinese? I mean through all that. And since high school I was always looking for books to read about anything to do with Chinese people, anything that had a female or Chinese main character, and I’ve always loved reading since I was a little kid and I was one of those kids that when the lights were turned out, I’d be under the covers with my flashlight reading. I just always loved reading.

So all this time, and I still actually have a lot of newspaper clippings that I had clipped out when I was in high school and going into university, so I went to University of Toronto and I did a General Arts & Science, it was English and Psychology that were my two majors when I went to U of T and when I graduated I wanted to, um, there were things that I didn’t want to do. I didn’t want to go into business. I didn’t want to work at my parents’ restaurant. and because I loved reading, I loved researching, then I chose to go and I wanted to use something that would use my bachelor degree so I didn’t want to start over in a first year kind of thing, so I looked and found the library school also at University of Toronto and I said well, I can use my four-year degree. I can continue out with my love of reading and literature and researching and so it seemed like a perfect match for me. And even when I was in university, I still had a few of, quite a few projects that I did that were all related to Chinatown history and Chinese history. So it’s just something that was kind of a side interest and when I started working, I got married, and I had my two boys and then everything got put on hold, of course, because it’s hard to juggle, so little time, to juggle everything that was going on.

So my whole writing career and my real intensification of my interest in Chinese-Canadian history and writing about it was all accidental. And it’s accidental in that somebody, a publisher, had commissioned somebody to write a children’s book about my mother. And it wasn’t proceeding as smoothly as the publisher wanted and so said to my mother, he said:

“Well, Jean, I know you have a daughter who’s a librarian, do you think she might be interested in taking over this project?” And my mother’s immediate reaction was “Oh no, no, Arlene, she’s working full time she’s got two young children.” and “She just doesn’t have time,” so then when she told me, I just kind of went: “Wait a minute. Wait a minute.”

I mean it was kind of like a door opening, there’s a saying that the busier you are- you always ask the busiest people to help out with projects. So it was just kind of like a door opened, and I just thought it was an excellent opportunity, so I contacted the publisher and I said “Well, what I can do is, I’ll write you one chapter and if you like it then we’ll proceed, if you don’t like it then, you know, I totally understand.” because I had done some creative writing in my high school years and I had written short stories that got published in our yearbook. and I did, of course, do a lot of writing at university and I did take English. English was one of my majors so then I wrote that one chapter and the publisher liked it so then that started, that accidental launch with my first book, and then after I finished my first book the publisher said, “Can you write about this topic?” and then that led to other books. So it was, I’m just very blessed that I had that opportunity, that door opened for me and I took that opportunity and, of course, since I’ve retired I’ve got a lot more time now to do research and continue with my interest in the history of the Chinese in Toronto and Canada.

LL: Well, what kind of, I guess, surprised you and you were first doing your first few books and research and stuff like that about First Chinatown? Where’s this something that growing up you didn’t even know in your like “Oh!”?

AC: All through the whole writing and research process. I had so many “Ah-ha” moments and because even with my first book being about my mom, and it was a children’s book, so it’s not very long and it’s not very detailed because it’s written for an elementary school audience, but, I’d heard my mother’s stories over and over again. She would tell us the stories. and then “Okay mom yes, okay, you’ve already told us this story.” but then when I had to really get hear her with the intention of writing about it, it really made me put on a different set of lenses to really interpret what she was saying and then I had to put it in the context of Chinatown and the story of the Chinese in Toronto, so that was a real eye-opener for me, but then when I started doing research about the history of the Chinese in Toronto when writing I’ve written a couple of books about that history. All these people that I had met as, and I was only a kid, and I always remember looking up, because I was just a little kid. These were so I met so many of the early 老華僑 (Lǎo huáqiáo), the early pioneers in our community.

So in addition to my own parents, I met so many other people who I knew as Uncle Harry, or you know, so-and-so because everybody was your auntie or your uncle and back then when I was growing up, the community, it was very very small and tight-knit, everybody knew everybody. So, when you would meet somebody for the first time the first question would be you know: “What’s your father’s name?” “Oh, you’re so-and-so’s daughter” or “What village is your father from?” which we had to memorize as kids. “Oh, you’re from that village”.

So for me when I was having all these “Ah-ha” moments it was amazing and very very exciting because it was not writing about history that was just something in the distant past, but it was part of when I was growing up. And so I always say that I had a front-row seat to seeing the development of Chinatown, not only our first Chinatown but also the West and East Chinatowns. So I’ve been there seeing the changes that have happened, and it’s it really puts me in a very unique position because so many of the people that I wrote about and their stories, where people that I knew and I remembered, and unfortunately by the time I wrote my first book about the history of the Chinese in Toronto, many of the old-timers had already passed on. So even my own father had already passed on and I kick myself because I did do a very amateur oral history not knowing what I was really doing because now you can find so much information about how to do an oral history, but at the time when I did it with my dad it was just me thinking and “Oh I should ask about this, that, and the other thing.” and there are so many holes in the story that I kick myself for not having the tools and the knowledge and the experience of doing an oral interview with my dad. And even by time I did it with my dad you could hear my mum in the back because I taped it and you could hear my mum in the back saying “No that’s not true it was it was so-and-so.” So I’ve got her voice in the back and it’s really quite funny, but it just shows how late it was in my dad’s life when I interviewed him and his memory was already fading, so my mother correcting him in the background is pretty funny.

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And a lot of people, when people post pictures of what they took pictures of our first Chinatown, they bring back a lot of memories. And so people are going through their files and finding oh these are old pictures and a lot of people think these are not important, but I always say “No, keep them, donate them to the Chinese Canadian Archive at the Toronto Public Library” these are so, they might not be important to you, but they really capture moments of our Chinatown history that are not recorded anywhere else. And so the pictures that you don’t think are very useful, even your family pictures, not only who is in the people are in the pictures, but a lot of times just what’s in the background are the capture snapshots of sites that we no longer have access to seeing anymore so I really encourage people to save things and just don’t throw them out. Because the easiest thing to do is just to throw things out, but so I really encourage people to donate them to the library archive.

Traditional Chinese

Lilian Leung:我先從幾個問題開始,請問你的全名是?

Arlene Chan:好的,我的名字是Arlene Chan,之前姓Lumb,因為那是我的家族姓氏,但現在我的姓氏改為了Chan。

LL: 那麽你有中文名嗎?

AC:有的,林瑞玲,現在是陳林瑞玲。

LL:接下來可否請你告訴我,你與舊中區華埠之間的聯繫呢?

AC:當然。我的家族曾經在舊中區華埠經營著一家名為Kwong Chow的餐廳,它位於Elizabeth街區和Dundas街區的角落。當我們一家在1959年搬到市中心區的時候,我們的房子座落於Beverly和Dundas街上,那正是舊中區華埠的外圍,但現在則是位於舊中區華埠和西區華埠之間。因為我們的餐廳經營得當,加上我的父母在社區中的活躍,我們也因此常常參與著社區活動,這一切使我們一家與舊中區華埠有著非常密切的關係。

LL:Kwong Chow餐廳都有著怎麽樣的菜色呢?

AC: Kwong Chow餐廳開業於1959年,由於當時在多倫多的多數華人都來自於中國南部,尤其是廣東省,所以我們餐廳也主要以廣東菜色或是台山菜色為主。我們也因此而出名。

LL:那麽都是誰在哪兒工作呢?是主要由家庭成員組成的呢?還是來自鄰裏街坊的人呢?

AC:我的父母是大股東,剩餘的部分也是由其他家庭成員所分擔。至於日常工作,則是由我的父母和他們的六個子女所負責,可以說是一個家族企業。

LL:是什麽讓你的父母決定開餐廳呢?你的母親曾經經營過一間雜貨店,是什麽造成這個大轉變呢?

AC:我的母親出生於卑詩省,在她16歲的時候,她來到了多倫多並在她姐姐和姐夫的水果店開始了工作。在他們搬去到安大略省北部開餐廳的時候,我的母親借了200加幣並於Bathurst街和St.Clair街處開了屬於自己的水果店。而在賺夠了足夠的錢後,她把她當時還住在溫哥華的家人也都接來了多倫多。

他們隨後一起開了更多間的水果店,在二戰前,對於華人來說,可經營的企業選擇並不多,當時的三大選項分別是是水果店,餐廳或是洗衣店。我的父親在Junction區域的Keele街與Dundas街處擁有一間名為Eng’s Produce的水果店。

所以在我父母結婚後,他們從1939年開始一起經營了這家店一直到1959年。那時對華人來說,可經營的企業選項依然很少,於是他們看上了一家曾經位於市中心區卻經營不善的中餐廳,並決定了接手它。

LL:在此之前,你的父母有任何烹飪或者是餐廳相關的經驗嗎?

AC:我的父母都不是專業的廚師,但我的父親在剛來到多倫多的時候曾經在不同的餐廳打過工。他還告訴我他一度因為表現出色,被提拔為了一間餐廳的主管。

在開始經營自己的餐廳後,盡管我的父母都投入到了餐廳的工作中,但因為他們有六個孩子,這使他們意識到他們無法將精力完全放在餐廳上。尤其在當我的母親開始逐漸將重心轉移到了社區的事項上時,我的父親則負擔起了撫養六個孩子的職責。他一周內大約有六到七天的時間都在餐廳工作,我的母親則是偶爾來幫幫忙,並把照顧六個孩子和社區工作放到了首位。因此他們常常會雇請能幹的幫廚,甚至還從香港邀請到了有名的廚師來擔當大廚,同時還有一名點心師傅來負責製作早茶的點心。

LL:基於你的專業背景,你是如何產生記錄唐人街的興趣呢?你對此又有什麽感想呢?

AC:我一直認為我的加拿大華裔身份十分有趣,我是偏向於加拿大人呢,還是偏向於華人呢?我從小就對閱讀有著極大的興趣,我就是那個關燈後還會拿著手電筒躲藏在被窩裏看書的孩子。在我上高中的時候,我更是會常常去試圖尋找有關華人或者是以女性為主的題材的書籍來閱讀。

直到今日,我還保留著當年我從報紙上剪下來的剪報。而到了上大學的年紀,我在多倫多大學就讀了文科,英文和心理學成為了我的兩個主攻專業。在我畢業後,我既不想成為一名企業家,也不想回到我父母的餐廳工作。是我對閱讀和研究的興趣,促使我去尋找到了隸屬於多倫多大學的圖書館學院,在這裏,我既可以應用到我四年的大學學識,更可以延續我對圖書檔案的興趣,這對我來說,似乎是一個完美的選擇。在這期間,我也完成了幾個與唐人街歷史和華人歷史相關的項目,所以我其實對這方面一直都很有興趣。而當我出來社會開始工作,並且結婚有了自己的兩個小孩時,我把這一切都暫時放置到了一旁,因為我實在是難以同時兼顧到所有的事情。

我開始寫作生涯以及我對加拿大華裔歷史的進一步了解完全是意料之外的。之所以我說是意料之外的,是因為有一個出版商找到了某個人來創作一本關於我母親的兒童書,但由於創作過程並不如出版商所設想的順利,於是他對我母親說:

“Jean,我知道你有個當圖書館管理員的女兒,你覺得她會願意接手這個項目嗎?” 我母親的第一反應是:“哦不不不,Arlene現在在做全職工作,還要照顧兩個孩子,她不會有時間的。” 但當她轉告這個消息給我的時候,我的反應是:”稍等,讓我想想。“

這就像是打開了一扇機遇的門,越忙的人反而越是容易被尋求幫助。回想起我在高中時期所創作並刊登在了畢業年冊上的短文。同時大學時期的英文專業也使我有著許多寫作方面的練習。於是我聯繫了這位出版商並對他說:“這樣吧,我先給你寫一個章節,如果你覺得滿意,我們就繼續合作下去,如果你不太滿意,我也充分的理解。” 在我完成了第一個章節後,出版商的人表示非常滿意,於是我人生中的第一本書也因此而發行。在這之後,出版商的人又聯繫我說:“你願意繼續寫一些有關這個主題的內容嗎?” 我的寫作生涯也隨之展開
,我非常幸運能得到並抓住這次機會。而現在已經退休的我也有了更多時間去繼續我對多倫多和加拿大華裔歷史的研究。

LL:在你進行深入研究並創作頭前幾本關於舊中區華埠的書的時候,有沒有什麽東西是在你成長過程沒有(注)意到,但在你意識到後會令你發出“噢!”的感嘆的呢?

AC:我所有的創作和研究過程都總是充滿著許多”啊哈!“的瞬間。因為我的第一本書是一本目標群體為小學學生的,是關於我母親的故事的兒童書,所以它的文本和細節十分有限。而盡管我們從小就在聽她一遍又一遍地講這些多多少少聽膩了的故事給我們。但當我以一個作者的角度出發的時候,我必須轉變我的目光去理解和詮釋她的故事,同時還要結合唐人街和舊中區華埠的歷史,所以這整個過程對我來說都是一個大開眼界的經歷。而在我瀏覽和收集多倫多舊中區華埠的期間,我回想起了許多在我小時候見過的老華僑,他們也是我們這個社區的先驅者。

除了我的父母以外,我還探訪了許多其他的人,比如Harry叔叔。因為我們這個社群非常小又非常緊密,大家都互相認識,所以每個人都是我的叔叔阿姨。因此每當你遇見誰,第一個問題總是:”你父親的名字是什麽?“ ”噢,你是那個誰誰的女兒。“ 或是 ”你是哪個村來的?“ 以及 ”噢,你是來自那個村的。“

對我來說,擁有這些”啊哈!“的瞬間是非常有趣的,因為我所描寫的不是一段遙遠的歷史,而是我所親身經歷過的歷史。作為親
歷者,我不僅僅見證了舊中區華埠,還有現在的西區和東區華埠/唐人街。我的身份也讓我在目睹了各種變化的同時,也記錄下了許多我曾經認識的人和事,遺憾的是,許多老一輩的人在我完成我的第一本關於舊中區華埠的書之前就去世了。盡管我的父親早已去世,但回想起來我和他曾經進行過的口述歷史記錄,我還是會對自己有一些責備。現在在口述歷史這方面的知識相比起我那時候已經完善了許多,而我當時只是隨意地拋出一些問題,這導致了我父親的口述歷史中留下了大量的空缺。甚至在回放當時的錄音時,仍然能聽到我母親的聲音出現在背景中,她常常會在父親說完一句話後說道:”不,你說錯了,應該是這樣或者那樣。“ 這側面地展現出了我那步入晚年的父親已經開始出現記憶衰退的現象,而我母親試圖糾正他這件事又顯得特別有趣。

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在人們展示舊中區華埠的照片時,總是能勾起許多的回憶。所以每當有人翻出這方面的照片並認為它們不重要的時候,我會對他們說”請保留它們,或是捐贈給多倫多公共圖書館的加拿大華裔檔案“ 這些對你來說也許不重要,但是它們切實地記錄了舊中區華埠的歷史,這是在哪都找不到的了。有時候重要的甚至不是照片上的人,而是照片裏的背景,也許就是一處早已消失的店鋪。所以我總是再三強調並鼓勵大家不要輕易地去扔掉舊物件,而是把它們捐贈給檔案圖書館。